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ssiterl



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PostSubject: hmm request rather than complaint   Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:20 pm

i have request but im not sure where to post it
so i decided to post it here.

when each round is over, can some1 post summary of that round??
and overall ranking till that point
i can chk results
but as each round goes, it will be hard to c whos winning the league so yea..
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DavidwhY

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PostSubject: Re: hmm request rather than complaint   Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:32 pm

Hey, that's a great idea and once Windwalkah gives me the ok I'll create a thread and be in charge of posting all the updates =)

My intention is for the thread to be mod/admin only for access so it can be strictly a reference thread, and a seperate thread will be there for people to post results. As far as summary goes I think this isn't necessary and most clans won't be bothered typing a summary up, just check replays if you want to watch them instead
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ssiterl



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PostSubject: Re: hmm request rather than complaint   Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:28 am

by summary, i meant just brief note like who won against who
so eg
round1
team A won against team B
team C won against team D

round2
team A won against team C
Team B won against tema D

overall rank
1.Team A
2.Team B or C ( compare points or something)
3. -
4. Team D

something like dis will help ppl to c wats happening in ssdl
instead of chking every result
noting briefly like this will help Smile
and if dey want details of match, dey can dl replays as its posted as well
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Stankey



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PostSubject: Re: hmm request rather than complaint   Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:02 am

Its pretty easy really. You just have to make a table, with all the clans along the top and down the side. Then you write (for example) in the Wdy-row/shck-column 2-1, and in the shck-row/wdy-column 1-2. And u blank out the ones where wdy vs wdy etc. Just like any other tournament (ive done a lot for sports lolz, i can make 1 if u want). Then its easy 2 update and easy 2 read. Then you just assign like 3 points for win, 1 for loss and zero for default or wateva. Makes things simpler for later. Let me know if u want me 2 do it, or if u dnt want 2 do it at all thats cool 2. It just makes things really easy for every1.

EDIT: good idea ssiter btw Razz
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S-Dawg



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PostSubject: Re: hmm request rather than complaint   Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:26 am

yeah it would be good like a little ladder system to see everyones overall wins/losses ? ? who gotta chance of making the finals ect ?
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DavidwhY

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PostSubject: Re: hmm request rather than complaint   Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:05 am

I'll do this and post it. It'll be mainly up to windwalkah to decide on the final point system; to me 3 for win, 1 for loss and 0 for default loss sounds good. I'll simply make the table post it in a specific thread and update it after every round =)

My suggestion is for top 4 to do a tie breaker with 2-0 wins before higher in tie-breaker status then 2-1.
I also suggest to have top 4 as follows:

First vs. Fourth in standings
Second vs. Third in standings.
Winner of each compete. "Losers" of each can compete for 3/4 if they want.

This is the standard single elimination pattern and is done in this way so "theoretically" first should vs. second in finals. Following this pattern the standard top 8 is usually 1 vs 8 2 vs 7 etc, I mean for general tournaments such as sporting.
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Stankey



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PostSubject: Re: hmm request rather than complaint   Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:05 am

DavidwhY wrote:
My suggestion is for top 4 to do a tie breaker with 2-0 wins before higher in tie-breaker status then 2-1.

Sorry what? lol
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WiNdWaLkAh
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PostSubject: =] =] =] =]   Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:41 am

/approve gj ssiter for thinking that idea up =]

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DavidwhY

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PostSubject: Re: hmm request rather than complaint   Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:00 am

Stankey:

I mean, since there are a total of 12 teams, each team will have played 11 games (excluding defaults).
however since there is a top 4, there may be say

1st: 11 wins
2nd: 9 wins
3rd, 4th, 5th: 8wins

So I am suggesting to use the tie breaker of which ever team has won more games by in b03 2-0 instead of 2-1 to be advanced forward. (I am undecided of if a default win is 2-0 or "2-0.5" since altho it is not their fault they won by default they are kind of getting an advantage over the 2-1s for free)
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Stankey



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PostSubject: Re: hmm request rather than complaint   Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:38 am

o well thats not a "tie breaker" lol. A tie break is where you play extra games. Thats just a countback. Well you dont do by whos won more 2-0 you do by total games for and against. So if ive won 2-0, 2-1 and lost 1-2 then we are 5-3. Yeah defaults are normally a pain like that, but you still count them as 2-0. Otherwise your giving a unfair loss to the team that won the game. Winning 2-1 if the other team defaulted is more unfair really. If you get to a point where theres to teams that are still tied on countback, then you can either choose the winner by whoever won the game between the two during the league, or they have another play off game to make the top 4.
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DavidwhY

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PostSubject: Re: hmm request rather than complaint   Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:53 am

Stankey wrote:
o well thats not a "tie breaker" lol. A tie break is where you play extra games. Thats just a countback. Well you dont do by whos won more 2-0 you do by total games for and against. So if ive won 2-0, 2-1 and lost 1-2 then we are 5-3. Yeah defaults are normally a pain like that, but you still count them as 2-0. Otherwise your giving a unfair loss to the team that won the game. Winning 2-1 if the other team defaulted is more unfair really. If you get to a point where theres to teams that are still tied on countback, then you can either choose the winner by whoever won the game between the two during the league, or they have another play off game to make the top 4.

Err "tiebreaker" is a term used in this context, althought it can be an additional game/s results used to deem a winner can be referred to as "tiebreaker".

Anyway, that is why I said I am thinking of using a default win as in between 2-1 and 2-0.
Because although it is a disadvantage to a dafault winning team it is also somewhat a disadvantage to everyone else if they get 2-0.. So if xyz wins five games total and you do too, and you have both won/lost same amount of games with same records (e.g. 2-0/2-1//1-2/0-2) yet one game was won by xyz by default and counted as 2-0 you are now tied.

Is it fair to say that 2-0 played game is worth 'slightly' more then a default win?

I personally don't care too much, however i think in between would be a bit better. i welcome everyone to voice their opinions on whether a default win should be 2-0 for tie breaker or 2-0.5
2-1 is out of the question imo.

One thing I do want to mention is that many tournaments which uses a similar method to the league we have now, that is swiss rounds/round robin ---> top cut based on standings have a system known as resistance in which if your opponents drop then your resistant is significantly weakened, and this would be a similar situation of an opponent not showing up and making you 2-0.5..
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Stankey



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PostSubject: Re: hmm request rather than complaint   Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:23 am

The only issue with that is your penalising the team who won the default game. Ive helped organise a few tournaments, and played in loads and for example in volleyball if you win by default then you win 2 sets to zero and you win each set 25-0 25-0 even though theres no way in hell you would actually win by that amount. But thats just the way it goes. Its more to penalise the team that defaults the game more than anything.

Like if say for some stupid reason mym played doa right, and we couldnt get 5, so we defaulted. Then mym would have a negative 0.5 on their score, when in reality they would have won 2-0. So they carry on and win all their games bar 1 and so does another clan, both being second equal, then on countback mym would loose by 0.5 because we defaulted to them. Is that their fault? do they deserve to come 3rd?
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DavidwhY

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PostSubject: Re: hmm request rather than complaint   Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:13 am

Yes i have thought of all the posibilities.. here is a poll for you guys to decide
http://ssdl.ogamewar.com/general-f5/tie-breaker-default-wins-2-0-2-1-or-2-05-t73.htm

i personally dont care too much..
remember although that situation exists, it is also slightly unfair to those who had to play and earn their 2-1.
its just two different view points i understand what youre saying and i already took that into consideration, i think you understand what i mean too.
so you can vote for what you think is best and other people i encourage you to do the same =)

sorry i do realize that you have a default win so i admit it would be a disadvantage to you guys but putting default win on the same level as a played 2-0 seems a little unfair to the 2-0 winners
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Stankey



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PostSubject: Re: hmm request rather than complaint   Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:39 am

Its not really unfair. You have your 2-0 win, you are not disadvantaged in any way. It just means we have a 2-0 win aswel, its not like we are getting any extra points more than you. What you are essentially doing is making us second to you after the first round. because we will both be equal on 3 points (a win) but you will be 2-0 and we will be 2-0.5 so we will be second. Which is just stupid in my opinion because what have we done wrong to be penalised for?

In your poll post you said " but more importantly represents the idea that playing and losing 0-2 is better then not playing at all =)." Yes it already is because a loss is 1 point and a default is 0 points. What your doing by giving them 0.5 is actually making it better to default because you will get 0.5wins rather then 0 wins. So if i had to play some clan i knew would most likely loose 2-0 to then i would default to get 2-0.5. Doesnt that seem silly?

What are you actually trying to achieve by giving 0.5 to the defaulted team? If we establish that im sure we can work out a solution. Its also unfair to make these rules after the tourney has started, and my clan has a default win.

You cant in all good concience say that your clan should be higher on the table then myne because you won 2-0 and we won by default. If we get penalised for winning by default then im going to have to rethink my clans place in ssdl.

The loosing team is already punished by getting no points rather then one, would you like to punish the winning team aswel by putting a half game loss against them? im not sure why really, what have they done wrong.

EDIT: i think i just saw in your poll post that you said (negative 0.5) to 2. Did you mean that? How would that work the other way around though? When you put it on the table for the winners, will they be 2/-0.5 or 2/0. Dont you think that getting zero points on the table rather than 1 is enough punishment? Its not like we need to make them loose half a point from their last win or something.
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DavidwhY

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PostSubject: Re: hmm request rather than complaint   Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:14 am

Stankey wrote:
Its not really unfair. You have your 2-0 win, you are not disadvantaged in any way. It just means we have a 2-0 win aswel, its not like we are getting any extra points more than you. What you are essentially doing is making us second to you after the first round. because we will both be equal on 3 points (a win) but you will be 2-0 and we will be 2-0.5 so we will be second. Which is just stupid in my opinion because what have we done wrong to be penalised for?

In your poll post you said " but more importantly represents the idea that playing and losing 0-2 is better then not playing at all =)." Yes it already is because a loss is 1 point and a default is 0 points. What your doing by giving them 0.5 is actually making it better to default because you will get 0.5wins rather then 0 wins. So if i had to play some clan i knew would most likely loose 2-0 to then i would default to get 2-0.5. Doesnt that seem silly?

What are you actually trying to achieve by giving 0.5 to the defaulted team? If we establish that im sure we can work out a solution. Its also unfair to make these rules after the tourney has started, and my clan has a default win.

You cant in all good concience say that your clan should be higher on the table then myne because you won 2-0 and we won by default. If we get penalised for winning by default then im going to have to rethink my clans place in ssdl.

The loosing team is already punished by getting no points rather then one, would you like to punish the winning team aswel by putting a half game loss against them? im not sure why really, what have they done wrong.

EDIT: i think i just saw in your poll post that you said (negative 0.5) to 2. Did you mean that? How would that work the other way around though? When you put it on the table for the winners, will they be 2/-0.5 or 2/0. Dont you think that getting zero points on the table rather than 1 is enough punishment? Its not like we need to make them loose half a point from their last win or something.

No, -0.5 is correct. Realize that the actual score 3/1/0 is seperate from tiebreaker calculations.
In regards to your comment about my clan and your clan I really don't know if you are serious, but if you are omg, lol I have no idea why you would think I am SUGGESTING (and offering a poll) of common sense. Unlike Kupo (And therefore probably you) I absolutely do not expect to have a chance of getting in top 4 and I will go as far as saying if we make it and you don't cause of this 2-0.5 issue we will give you our spot.

I have explained more then once and I will not do it again.. I personally do not care but people who have won two games in a played out game should be creditted more then those who got a default. In the end you have to realize the only time this will matter is when you have the same score as another clan except they have played a game and won 2-0 whereas you have a default on record.

To be honest I can't think of a better example, but lets say you are giving a job interview. Two people exactly the same education/skills/personality etc. One has a nicer smile. There is no other difference. It is just there as a third section of a tiebreaker.

1st: Overall wins
2nd: Bo3 total wins minus losses
3rd: has one team won a game by default?

again i really dont know if you think i am seeriously relating this to my clan and yours personally it really is a coincedence. as you (and others on this board) have seen i have in the past agreed with you many times and i assure you all I am not a bias person, so please at least read my posts without thinking that I am doing this for my benefit.
As posted above I have no chance of top 4 and will forfeit our spot to doa if we make it because of this 'penalty'.

In the end again it won't affect me much but I am going to leave it open for discussion, and as a poll. i realize this is being done after the start, however i only realized now after beginning to create the table that we will have to eventually sort this out, and to say the least, now is better then after all the rounds.
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Stankey



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PostSubject: Re: hmm request rather than complaint   Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:29 am

Well dont take it to the "ill ff my teams place" im just saying its unfair and u may hav noticed i hav a gd sense whats right and wrong lol, and i get pissed at unfair stuff. Imo theres no need to punish a team when the other team forfiets. Its never been done in any other tournament that ive heard of and i dont see why it should start now.
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DavidwhY

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PostSubject: Re: hmm request rather than complaint   Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:59 am

well by the sounds of things the resultant will be as follows: teams will play a best of one tie breaker in the rare event where total wins - losses is the same
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Stankey



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PostSubject: Re: hmm request rather than complaint   Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:10 pm

it mite not b very rare when we are playing a 11 game round robin rather then like 3 pools of 4. So we arent gna have countbacks? Cus even if 1st is fine, and 4th is fine but there 2 clans equal on 2nd wil 2nd/3rd hav 2 play off for seedings for semis?
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DavidwhY

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PostSubject: Re: hmm request rather than complaint   Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:31 pm

Stankey wrote:
it mite not b very rare when we are playing a 11 game round robin rather then like 3 pools of 4. So we arent gna have countbacks? Cus even if 1st is fine, and 4th is fine but there 2 clans equal on 2nd wil 2nd/3rd hav 2 play off for seedings for semis?

I think yes they will have to play for seedings as seedings has been designed so that a higher seeding is theoretically more advantaged. i.e. first places fourth. so yes, play offs will happen for seedings too. a single bo1 game.
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Stankey



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PostSubject: Re: hmm request rather than complaint   Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:48 pm

ok well let me know if im going to be punished for nza's default to us, cus then i can kick up a stink. convo ova for now i guess.
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